It heartens me in a way to see the leaches/shorters attacking QFI with such vigour.
Well, they attack companies they know are about to climb substantially.. you see they work for people in the know, who want in at a much lower level so their multiples are higher....
TOT I suggest you research further. See https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=N#no4_fuel_oil . What you are referring to is No. 4 fuel oil. Bunker fuel and heavy fuel oil for power plants is No. 6 as is evident from the link.
No way No. 6 or MSAR is going to make its way into a gas turbine. The first row of blades will be gone in a matter of weeks.
I had a very nice steak thank you videodawn, washed down with a couple of glasses of Rioja, which has mellowed me somewhat, and I will acknowledge that I made one mistake at the start of this thread in perhaps implying that Shoaiba was purely a CCGT plant. That was not my intention, as it is much bigger than that, but I stand by my premise that MSAR could be used in such a plant as well as in the more conventional part of the power station. Securing a fuel supply contact to either part of the power station would be of enormous significance to a company like QFI.
I also stand by my view that a JV with GE Power or possibly Rafid Group (with whom QFI have a MOU) would be key to assuring compliance with the KIngdom's IKTVA programme.
Enjoy your evening, I am definitely signing off now, as others require my attention
It is of course a residue based product Catlon, but I'm afraid the US Energy Administration disagrees with you in its definition of distillate fuel oil:https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=Distillate%20fuel%20oil
Enjoy your dinner, but at the very start of this thread you said that Shoaiba was a fully CCGT power plant, when it is not, and asked for a sensible debate. Well you have had one, despite abusing me by calling me a "bilge rat" , but I forgive you for that.
Then you say...
"There is enough potential at the conventional plant to make it a company maker anyway, so why persist with an argument about the CCGT part?"
That observation throws your initial post in conflict with your current view IMO. You started it on a false premise from some Wiki link.
So I hope you have learned a bit about power generation today, which can only help you in future.
If there is another terminal at Shoaiba for light oils or distillates perhaps you will find it but I am having dinner shortly and have already put enough time in here today. There is enough potential at the conventional plant to make it a company maker anyway, so why persist with an argument about the CCGT part?
No, you said that there was no terminal facility for light oil or distillate, but there must be.
The CCGT facilities were built as phase 2 at Shoaiba and the conventional oil burning steam plant is phase 3 and is more modern. The CCGT units use Arab light as the primary fuel, as I just explained in my post, with distillate as a secondary standby fuel.
I have never seen evidence that a gas turbine has been fired on MSAR . I doubt that it is possible for metallurgical reasons. So it cannot replace light oil for CCGT applications.
Yes I am keeping up VD. I posted two articles at 16:15 showing that the plant was powered by fuel oil. Now you produce one which indicates that the newer CCGT plant is powered by distillate oil.
I am sure that you are aware that HFO is produced by using distillates to cut the refinery residues, hence it is distillate oil. MSAR substitutes water and surfactant for the much more valuable distillates.
I have just checked the AGM presentation and the projected fuel consumption during the 'trial' is actually 1,000,000 bbl's, not tonnes. That equates to about 125,000 of HFO, so it would take 125 days to produce assuming only one standard MMU was utilised.
As Catlon suggests, availability of sufficient feedstock could inhibit full commercial rollout, which is why we were advised at the AGM that refineries in the wider region (think GCC here) might become involved.
Please keep to the argument. Cation told you the CCGT units were fired on Arab light or distillate. They are....
An EPC project delivered by the
Korean Contractor Daelim,
commissioned by the Saudi
Electricity Company, to help meet
future demand within Saudi Arabia..
The power plant, balance of plant
and the 380kV substation is
engineered and constructed by
Daelim. It shall be delivered in two
phases, first open cycle, followed
by combined cycle. The project is
expected to be completed within 36
The power plant shall comprise of
2 combined cycle blocks, each with
5 GTGs, 5 HRSGs and 1 STG.
The primary and secondary fuels
are light Arabian crude and
distillate oil respectively.
The Gas turbines are Siemens
SGT6-2000E, Siemens Steam
Turbines, and vertical configuration
2 pressure HRSGs.
A little optimistic I think fyoz
A single 400MW unit will use about 3400 tonnes per day of MSAR. That's about 17 million tonnes per year for the total 14 power units.
A 2 month trial on a single unit will need 205000 tonnes of MSAR. That will take them about 7 months to make with their standard 1000 tonne per day MMU.
A typical 400000 BPD refinery will make about 3.5 million tonnes/y of residue, enough to make 5 million tonnes/y of MSAR. So they will need 14 MMUs spread over 4 refineries suitable for MSAR production if they are to hit the holy grail.
Not sure if they have enough suitable refineries to meet this. Needs research.
Fyoz, you seem to be joining the derampers now :-)
FWIW the figure we were given at the AGM for profit to QFI was $10/tonne and that is down from a figure of $14/ tonne I once saw in a document when I went inside for the 3.5p placing many years ago. I think the reduced figure now reflects Rafid Group's share of the pie.
Catlon:- "and a 5600MW (14x400MW) conventional steam cycle plant built largely by Alsthom so it is likely the trial would, assuming Shoaiba is correct, be on these conventional units."
So we've been told the trial burn will take 2 months and consume about 1 million tonnes of MSAR. So, post trial, and assuming they can find enough residue to make MSAR for the 14 boilers, they'll be getting through 84 million tonnes of MSAR annually. At around £7 per tonne royalty to QFI that's a yearly revenue of £588m from Shoaiba. And KSA make about $25bn from the distillates they can now sell
Plus Kuwait in the wings, JGC contracts, oh yes and eventually marine . . .
TOT, unfortunately Videodawn is correct on the technical issue. Combined cycle plants combust the fuel in a gas turbine and then uses the waste heat from the gas turbine in what is generally termed a "heat recovery steam generator (HRSG)" to generate steam which is used in a conventional steam turbine to generate approximately 50% further power. It is most unlikely they would burn MSAR or HFO in the gas turbines as the metal content of the heavy residue would pretty soon shred the gas turbine blades.
However Shoaiba has 2 power plants. A CCGT plant of 1200MW built by Daelim and a 5600MW (14x400MW) conventional steam cycle plant built largely by Alsthom so it is likely the trial would, assuming Shoaiba is correct, be on these conventional units.
It's only an hour or so ago you asked for some reasoned debate about your research. I offered some reasoned debate , but you now go off and sulk and refuse to discuss your research with " bilge rats" and going off about shorters.
The boiler combustion trial will burn MSAR in a fuel fired steam raising plant. That is what a combustion boiler does.
Combined cycle power plants use the hot exhaust gas heat from turbogenerators to boil water in a waste heat boiler and the resulting steam is used to generate additional power.
The combustion boiler trial cannot take place at a CCPP which does not use such a boiler. Or if you think it can, explain how without posting up wiki links to things you seem not to understand.
And where is it in the public domain that the trial is planned for Shoiba?
Videodawn, the term combined cycle refers to the combining of multiple thermodynamic cycles to generate power, a steam boiler is part of the equation. Anyway as I said i my original post I am not going to engage any further with bilge rats who have an agenda. Your tick up from the pathetic kreature says it all.
Videodawn, the problem with shorting gangs is that they rarely do suffient research. It is blindingly obvious from company news releases and AGM presentations that the target is Shoaiba, given its specification and number of units.
As to boilers in CCPPs you might find these articles provide some illumination:
Ok I said I would stay in my bunker until we had some news or something to report on and we have had both now so here goes with exhibit one:
Note the focus on identifying innovative solutions to develop and install new systems that will boost gas turbine efficiency and productivity. Also the focus on reducing the amount of ash that results from fuel combustion. More on the latter later.
First, the under researched might ask what relevance gas turbines might have to MSAR, so educate yourselves here first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil_fuel_power_station#Gas_turbine_plants and focus on combined cycle power plants - where the turbines are fueled either with natural gas, syngas or fuel oil. Now our target power station is the giant Shoaiba plant which is of course a combined cycle power plant:https://www.power-technology.com/projects/shoaiba/
Now let's return to that issue about reducing the amount of ash that results from fuel combustion. Again anyone who has done their research properly will know about the benefits of MSAR in this area but for those who haven't look here: http://www.quadrisefuels.com/sites/default/files/2016-09/TEIT%20JUNE_2015.pdf and you will appreciate the significant savings which can be made at the power station site from reducing ash disposal.
So let's now get to the point, why is this so relevant to the sign off of those all important contracts? Well as well as the bilateral agreements we have the multi party contract which one would assume will be between QFI, Aramco (+ JV refinery partner(s)), and the Saudi Electricity Co, but one of the principle impediments for QFI might be the IKTVA programme, other wise known as Saudi-ization, which is a 'strategic imperative' for Aramco.
There's a power point presentation about it on Aramco's website here:https://www.iktva.sa/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/IKTVA-FORUM-CREATING-VALUE-IN-THE-KINGDOM.pdf and I'll be honest here and aknowledge that I did have some concerns about QFI being able to meet these requirements, at least in the trial stages of the project as it would be mainly using its own staff, with no in Kingdom base or Saudi nationals as employees. But what if it were initially to come within the umbrella of GE's latest contract with the Saudi's? They are already carrying out an enormous amount of work within the Kingdom and clearly comply with IKTVA programme.
So with this news I think we have seen the removal of one significant hurdle to the project being signed off , hence the title of this post. The logical next step would be the signing of a JV between QFI's subsidiary company Quadrise KSA and GE Power, then on to the biggie. That could all happen pretty soon now imo.
Happy to engage in sensible debate about this, but I will exclude the bilge rats who are now infesting all three boards from that. They have proved beyond doubt that they are not interested in sensible debate.
At the AGM Mike Kirk informed us that the KSA contract would be signed by Year End. Clearly he was incorrect and jumped the gun.
What do we know now :-
The trial will commence once all the agreements are finalised, which the Company continues to anticipate to be early in calendar year 2018. I would say Feb 28th latest. If this runs in to March its no longer early 2018
Boiler trial, there is an extensive fuel production phase and this remains on track to commence in Q1 2018, i.e. no later than March 31st
with associated bulk MSAR® storage and shipping to the trial boiler to enable the combustion phase to be completed during the second half of 2018. i.e. No later than Dec hopefully sooner?
So if the above is correct we may have another 5 weeks till any news is forthcoming.
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